Democracy

Parliament is being “suspended” for FOUR days they have just had six weeks off and will have two more for party conferences. They have also had THREE years of debating Brexit so this is a nonsense. All the anger is because Boris has out manoeuvred them by stopping them bending the rules of Parliament with the collusion of the Speaker to introduce legislation to prevent a no deal and by this keep us in EU.

To me the whole problem is the way the whole thing has been handled. It should have been simple after the general election in June 2017, when both main parties agreed to honour the referendum, to go to the EU with a list of what we wanted to see in a Brexit deal and if the EU said no, then just to have left.

None of this backwards and forwards, will we won't we and procrastination which has just created animosity and greater division so it's now a hopeless mess.

TonTri wrote:To me the whole problem is the way the whole thing has been handled. It should have been simple after the general election in June 2017, when both main parties agreed to honour the referendum, to go to the EU with a list of what we wanted to see in a Brexit deal and if the EU said no, then just to have left.

None of this backwards and forwards, will we won't we and procrastination which has just created animosity and greater division so it's now a hopeless mess.

Agree

TonTri wrote:To me the whole problem is the way the whole thing has been handled. It should have been simple after the general election in June 2017, when both main parties agreed to honour the referendum, to go to the EU with a list of what we wanted to see in a Brexit deal and if the EU said no, then just to have left.

None of this backwards and forwards, will we won't we and procrastination which has just created animosity and greater division so it's now a hopeless mess.

I agree, the way the whole thing has been handled has been a disgrace. I look at the state of our politicians and wonder just how UK go to this situation.
Regarding the "UK go to the EU with a list of what we wanted" then I don't quite think it works that way. UK voted to leave, the EU isn't kicking them out.
In fact, from the very beginning, the EU only asked 3 things:
1. A guarantee on the rights of EU citizens already living in the UK and vice versa
2. The guarantee to pay for the procedures already agreed to, ie the divorce bill.
3. A way to avoid a hard border between the Irelands.

And that was it. Nothing else. Once they were done then we could negotiate trade treaties. But, no, this was going to be "the easiest thing in the world", "over by teatime" etc.
That many people seem to think the EU will bend over backwards to accommodate the UK and not do what it thinks is the best for the EU has been the stumbling block all along.
Shame we didn't just take the politicians out of the loop and put together a negotiating team of top businessmen to do it all from the beginning. Closing down any debate on the subject at Westminster is not the way to do it.

(And before I get slated as a Europhile, I do believe the UK should leave the EU as that was the way the vote went. But I also believe we should go with a deal beneficial to both sides if such a think exists).

Excellent summarisation, Marcliff, particularly the bit about leaving the negotiations up to businessmen. I fear too many politicians have their own (business) interests at heart and not that of the people or the country.

I don’t remember the Irish border being a highlighted issue in the referendum campaign, now its the crucial element.

earlybay wrote:I don’t remember the Irish border being a highlighted issue in the referendum campaign, now its the crucial element.

I don't believe anything was an issue in the referendum, badly worded and thought out. Obviously if UK left EU and Ireland does not problem regarding smuggling and evasion of taxes not to mention security.David Cameron has a lot to answer...

TonTri wrote:The choice wasn't deal or no deal, it was leave or remain. Not difficult to understand the meaning of the words, people knew exactly what they were voting for.

yes it was leave or remain , the vote, back then, but no one knew the facts of what each vote meant at the time , nothing had been placed in front of the people to say we will get this or that , how can someone vote for something without knowing what it entails ,but to vote to remain you know what your getting as your already getting it,"why change the horses if there working well"

garysl wrote:Without getting melodramatic about it, if you've ever read about it much, it's very easy to start seeing comparisons with the rise of Facism in Germany in the 1920's/1930's and what's happening in the UK and other countries now. Once you come up with a trick to start by-passing parliament, because the majority of MP's might not agree with you, what's to stop you doing it a second time, with something else? And then again, a third time, and so on? The Nazis passed The Enabling Act of 1932 to allow them to bypass the Reichstag. That was cloaked as "the will of the people" as well. Those that fail to learn the lessons of history and all that.

Too True, spoken from experience!

and once parliament has been dodged once it is easier to do it again...
I don´t know who will win the next election, maybe Labour...?

Would Boris and the Conservatives be happy if Labour did the same thing?

I think not..

However, one of the most worrying things is the reason Johnson gave..

Does he really think people will believe that he is just doing it to help the NHS and the police?.. He KNOWS people know he is lying and does not give a stuff that they know..

So folk, expect more of that in the coming months..

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