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Democracy
Discuss your questions about the EU and Brexit and what it means for Quesada and Spain
Re: Democracy
by Glassfull » Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:31 pm
To answer your original question, it’s just the UK. But, the issue would have never arisen but for Brexit so, the two things are inseparable.
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Glassfull - Posts: 2526
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Re: Democracy
by polop » Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:39 pm
Glassfull wrote:To answer your original question, it’s just the UK. But, the issue would have never arisen but for Brexit so, the two things are inseparable.
Democracy and Brexit are not inseparable far from it...what Johnson is doing may have something to do with Brexit but nothing to do with Democracy.
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polop - Posts: 968
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Re: Democracy
by Glassfull » Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:13 pm
polop wrote:Glassfull wrote:To answer your original question, it’s just the UK. But, the issue would have never arisen but for Brexit so, the two things are inseparable.
Democracy and Brexit are not inseparable far from it...what Johnson is doing may have something to do with Brexit but nothing to do with Democracy.
Correct, he has become a dictator!
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Glassfull - Posts: 2526
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Re: Democracy
by blingle » Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:02 pm
Glassfull wrote:Can’t deny what the ballot paper asked but what you have conveniently forgotten, is the dialogue which surrounded the campaign...
And where, exactly, "O font of all knowledge", have I conveniently forgotten anything in this post?
All I have done is ask what the public were asked to vote on.
Feel free to launch another attack.
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Re: Democracy
by robl » Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:05 pm
As a relative youngster (40!) on this forum I find it really interesting/terrifying/humorous on some of the previous posts on this topic.
As a UK citizen with outright owned property in Spain I do see how this is more of an issue for me than a Brit with no overseas interest (house/export etc) but within a reasonable adjustment I don't see brexit as a massive problem for me/Us/ex-pats in Spain.
It's something we'll have to deal with both positive and negative. Although I see how things may change initially for worse - especially £/Euro wise I just struggle and don't see the upside in what we as a country have chosen to do within a decade or two.
In short, whats the pain for? We said we'd do it and have to? The people had their say a few years ago with limited information and that's final? Given the amount of time and new information that's been made apparent I think a sanity check is due, not that I believe the sky is about to fall in - I'm just finding it hard to see how leaving without a deal is good for us in the short term or even medium term. Sure, the long term might be better but at what cost? This for me (admittedly rather selfishly as I've a few years left working ahead) isn't about long term planning - how can any country stand by when the immediate generations are left adrift?
I do believe that we'll find our way BUT at a greater cost than leavers initially wanted to pay. Being independent requires strength and above all unity, something I don't feel a great deal of at the moment. All in all, I say this as a man that's waiting to pay for the meal he/his friends ordered that hasn't been delivered and awaits to find out how much the car park/extra drinks/steak supplement(!) will cost him to to leave. I'm trying to find something more positive other than "I said I'd do this and I will." Whilst admirable for some I wonder how much it will cost others in the short to medium term.
Finally, (and also tongue in cheek) I also question the motives of some of the wealthy ex-pats amongst us in Spain that have lived here for years that voted to leave, surely a hard brexit makes the pound go down in value and the euro based property price go up should they decide to sell to another non UK resident. Not a groundbreaking theory but just asking...
In the words of Mark Twain - "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect".
Mr Twain also did say "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great".
But also this "Get your facts first and then you can distort them as you please"
Mr T/Laurence Tureaud/ B.A Baracus said "I'm not getting in no plane fool"
The choice of quote is yours. I've seen the A-team loads and all B.A needs to do is stay away from milk (although that may not be as relevant).
Anyway I've got my tin hat on and stand ready to be educated/re-corrected/burned at the stake.
Thanks
As a UK citizen with outright owned property in Spain I do see how this is more of an issue for me than a Brit with no overseas interest (house/export etc) but within a reasonable adjustment I don't see brexit as a massive problem for me/Us/ex-pats in Spain.
It's something we'll have to deal with both positive and negative. Although I see how things may change initially for worse - especially £/Euro wise I just struggle and don't see the upside in what we as a country have chosen to do within a decade or two.
In short, whats the pain for? We said we'd do it and have to? The people had their say a few years ago with limited information and that's final? Given the amount of time and new information that's been made apparent I think a sanity check is due, not that I believe the sky is about to fall in - I'm just finding it hard to see how leaving without a deal is good for us in the short term or even medium term. Sure, the long term might be better but at what cost? This for me (admittedly rather selfishly as I've a few years left working ahead) isn't about long term planning - how can any country stand by when the immediate generations are left adrift?
I do believe that we'll find our way BUT at a greater cost than leavers initially wanted to pay. Being independent requires strength and above all unity, something I don't feel a great deal of at the moment. All in all, I say this as a man that's waiting to pay for the meal he/his friends ordered that hasn't been delivered and awaits to find out how much the car park/extra drinks/steak supplement(!) will cost him to to leave. I'm trying to find something more positive other than "I said I'd do this and I will." Whilst admirable for some I wonder how much it will cost others in the short to medium term.
Finally, (and also tongue in cheek) I also question the motives of some of the wealthy ex-pats amongst us in Spain that have lived here for years that voted to leave, surely a hard brexit makes the pound go down in value and the euro based property price go up should they decide to sell to another non UK resident. Not a groundbreaking theory but just asking...
In the words of Mark Twain - "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect".
Mr Twain also did say "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great".
But also this "Get your facts first and then you can distort them as you please"
Mr T/Laurence Tureaud/ B.A Baracus said "I'm not getting in no plane fool"
The choice of quote is yours. I've seen the A-team loads and all B.A needs to do is stay away from milk (although that may not be as relevant).
Anyway I've got my tin hat on and stand ready to be educated/re-corrected/burned at the stake.
Thanks
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robl - Posts: 18
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Re: Democracy
by Pete31 » Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:39 pm
Ha ha, very good nice to see that someone takes it a bit easier on the subject, all we can do is look and wait its far out of our hands now folks.
AND SO SAY ALL OF US!! Pete.
AND SO SAY ALL OF US!! Pete.
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Re: Democracy
by A.N.Other » Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:28 pm
For me the image of the ballot paper perfectly encapsulates the folly of holding the referendum when they did.
Even now and with all that's happened in the ensuing 3 years if presented with the self same binary question I wonder how many could make a choice dispassionately and based based purely on weighing the facts and the pros and cons?
BTW you can believe me or not but from the moment the shock result of the referendum became know I've been saying that it would come down to the Irish border.
By the same crystal ball I hereby predict that John Bercow the Speaker of The House will prove to be the man of the moment and will be pivotol in cutting lying BoJo and his cronies off at the knees.
Even now and with all that's happened in the ensuing 3 years if presented with the self same binary question I wonder how many could make a choice dispassionately and based based purely on weighing the facts and the pros and cons?
BTW you can believe me or not but from the moment the shock result of the referendum became know I've been saying that it would come down to the Irish border.
By the same crystal ball I hereby predict that John Bercow the Speaker of The House will prove to be the man of the moment and will be pivotol in cutting lying BoJo and his cronies off at the knees.
- A.N.Other
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Pete31 - Posts: 1627
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Re: Democracy
by TonTri » Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:03 pm
Glassfull wrote:Also, it must be recognised that many Leavers have changed their minds, especially since the warnings, “project fear”, have become Project fact.
I know of quite a few remainers who have changed their minds as well. Now I've never voted Tory in my life, yet at least half of it I have had to endure a Tory government, that is how democracy works. And they always use political propaganda, lies and manifesto promises to woo voters to their side. But no-one questions general election results.
Blame David Cameron if you like for calling the referendum, but the result was that Leave won, DEMOCRATICALLY!
Labour and Tories both stood by the result and said they would support Brexit, without stipulating with or without a deal. To now go against that is totally undemocratic and many remainers feel the same.
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TonTri - Posts: 2631
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Re: Democracy
by garysl » Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:39 pm
If you're happy to leave without a deal, can I just ask a question? Do you accept that's there's going to be a really heavy price to pay economically, and that, if you've retired, some of your family and friends might lose their jobs as a result and there'll be a lot more years of austerity, but that's a price worth paying, or, do you think it's project fear and it'll be all fine (even if there are a few initial hiccups) I'm genuinely interested.
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