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PADRON AMAZED

Re: PADRON AMAZED

Postby marcliff » Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:03 pm

Babu wrote:A bit confused by the above replies now . . Who benefits from the Suma money then? You pay that whether youre on the Padron or not . . I thought that was set locally to cover public works etc. (Both property and vehicle Suma) . .



SUMA is the name of the company that is responsible for collecting local taxes such as the council tax (IBI) and car tax (which is collected locally in Spain). These are municipal taxes that are raised by the local town halls.

Each town and city gets an amount of money raised in general taxation based on the number of residents it has. This goes to pay for essential services in the area and, the more residents you have, the more money is paid by the regional government which, here, is based in Valencia. They get the number of residents by the number of people who are empadrionamiento (signed on the padron).

Now, it should only be for those who are permanently resident in the locality and many places will not allow you to sign on the padron if you are not a resident.

However, some people are saying that you cannot be on the padron if you are not resident which is not the case.
The Spanish rules under the decree are (translated from the Spanish)
"All people living in the municipality must be registered on the census whether nationals or foreigners, in the latter case, whether or not their status is regularised in the Register of the Ministry of Interior.

Remember that you can be a resident in Spain even if you are not a fiscal resident. Simply spending 3 months or more here in any one year can confer residency even if you are not paying income tax.
It is not up to the town halls to decide on what constitutes legal residency.

Rojales reads the rules as anyone who resides more than 3 months in the area in any one year should be classed as a resident and should register on the padron.

There is nothing in the Spanish rules on empadronamiento that I can see (but it is a very large decree) that states you must be an habitual resident, ie Spain is now your permanent place of residency.

So if you intend to spend more than 3 months in any one year in Spain you should register on the padron.
The area will then benefit from grants provided by the regional government (who gets the allowances from the central government).

The Citizens Advice Bureau in Spain stated in 2015 that "only habitual residents" should register on the padron.
However, in 2016 after reading the new decree, they changed it to anyone who intends to be a resident which is the bit for over 3 months in one year.
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Re: PADRON AMAZED

Postby PeteKnight » Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:28 pm

The problem is that CAB Spain contradicts itself on its website.
The information quoted above is from a CAB post dated 25th March 2016.

But, on 3rd May 2017 CAB posted....

“Do I Need a Padron Certificate to Purchase a Vehicle?
This is a question that continually crops up on our FB group page. Owning to misinformation from personnel at many vehicle dealerships. Nonresidents should not be registered on the padron (unless habitual residents of a town in Spain). Non residents many who own holiday homes here are entitled to purchase an car and the majority do. They are not registered on the padron. What is needed to purchase a vehicle is your ID such as passport or ID card and a NIE number.
Note* The padron is a census and could have tax implications for those registering. By being inscribed on the register, you are stating that you reside in Spain.”

Pete.
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Re: PADRON AMAZED

Postby scubydoo » Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:47 am

PeteKnight wrote:The problem is that CAB Spain contradicts itself on its website.
The information quoted above is from a CAB post dated 25th March 2016.

But, on 3rd May 2017 CAB posted....

“Do I Need a Padron Certificate to Purchase a Vehicle?
This is a question that continually crops up on our FB group page. Owning to misinformation from personnel at many vehicle dealerships. Nonresidents should not be registered on the padron (unless habitual residents of a town in Spain). Non residents many who own holiday homes here are entitled to purchase an car and the majority do. They are not registered on the padron. What is needed to purchase a vehicle is your ID such as passport or ID card and a NIE number.
Note* The padron is a census and could have tax implications for those registering. By being inscribed on the register, you are stating that you reside in Spain.”


Pete.


Actually you are not stating you reside as the council ask people who are not resident to register on the padron, the real problem is with the system a council like Rojales with so many non residential properties can not maintain the area without the additional funds so catch 22! I would also point out Rojales are not alone and many areas do this and I did read somwhare that the local councils are battling with government to get the rule clarified so they can claim for all properties that are owned to stop this stupidity!

Until then everyone should sign on the Padron as asked by the council and people who do not live in the area should but out!
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Re: PADRON AMAZED

Postby Joyce » Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:11 am

You cannot renew your non-resident SIP card in Rojales if you haven't got a recent Padron
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Re: PADRON AMAZED

Postby Dave_999 » Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:26 am

So, if you own a holiday home and do not visit enough to trigger the need for padron, however long that maybe, you will still pay tax to the Suma? Who generates that bill and what happens to that money?
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Re: PADRON AMAZED

Postby marcliff » Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:42 am

The town hall generates the bills collected by SUMA. The IVTM (road tax) is generated by the amount of money the council will need to maintain roads in their area (A & N roads are maintained by central government) and that is divided by the number of car registrations in the area. That is then spent on the upkeep of the roads (including hedge trimming, roundabout maintenance etc).
The IBI (council tax) is used to maintain public buildings, street lighting (inc electricity), local police, wages for council staff, libraries and all the other things that councils would be responsible for. This is charged as a percentage of the value of your property.
The regional government (both Alicante and Valencia) will pay a certain amount per person registered on the padron which goes to fund new public buildings, increase services available to the public, pick up all that dumped furniture which people leave on the roadside (the rubbish collection tax only pays for the green bins to be emptied, the truck you sometimes see collecting big rubbish is paid for by the council).
And then there's schools, healthcare and so on paid by central government to regional governments and then allocated to provincial departments according to the amount of people registered on the padron (the only way they have of knowing how many people live there and use the facilities).
You can read the full report on how your local taxes are spent on the SUMA website. Sports facilities, park maintenance and so on. Not forgetting the dog park, street cleaning etc.
Quite a lot for the reasonable amount we actually pay.
But if there are 60,000 people living in Rojales and only 20,000 are on the padron then the council will bear the brunt of extra expenditure with a reduced regional grant to the community.
Hence the complaints about street lighting not working in some areas, pedestrian crossings not being re-painted, not enough street cleaning and so on.
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Re: PADRON AMAZED

Postby scubydoo » Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:26 pm

marcliff wrote:The town hall generates the bills collected by SUMA. The IVTM (road tax) is generated by the amount of money the council will need to maintain roads in their area (A & N roads are maintained by central government) and that is divided by the number of car registrations in the area. That is then spent on the upkeep of the roads (including hedge trimming, roundabout maintenance etc).
The IBI (council tax) is used to maintain public buildings, street lighting (inc electricity), local police, wages for council staff, libraries and all the other things that councils would be responsible for. This is charged as a percentage of the value of your property.
The regional government (both Alicante and Valencia) will pay a certain amount per person registered on the padron which goes to fund new public buildings, increase services available to the public, pick up all that dumped furniture which people leave on the roadside (the rubbish collection tax only pays for the green bins to be emptied, the truck you sometimes see collecting big rubbish is paid for by the council).
And then there's schools, healthcare and so on paid by central government to regional governments and then allocated to provincial departments according to the amount of people registered on the padron (the only way they have of knowing how many people live there and use the facilities).
You can read the full report on how your local taxes are spent on the SUMA website. Sports facilities, park maintenance and so on. Not forgetting the dog park, street cleaning etc.
Quite a lot for the reasonable amount we actually pay.
But if there are 60,000 people living in Rojales and only 20,000 are on the padron then the council will bear the brunt of extra expenditure with a reduced regional grant to the community.

Hence the complaints about street lighting not working in some areas, pedestrian crossings not being re-painted, not enough street cleaning and so on.

:text-goodpost: :text-goodpost: Well explained ;) ;)
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Re: PADRON AMAZED

Postby Paulr » Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:47 pm

Joyce wrote:You cannot renew your non-resident SIP card in Rojales if you haven't got a recent Padron


There is no such thing as a "non-resident SIP card"; non-residents can obtain "Temporary" SIP cards for use up to a maximum of 6 months.

Rojales, because of its very particular problem of being home to the largest urbanisation in Europe, i.e. Ciudad Quesada and a higher than average holiday-home ownership, struggles to raise funds for serving the needs of its population. Hence, the Town Hall encourages non-residents to illegally sign the Padron; similarly, the town's medical centre re-issues Temporary SIP cards to non-residents who are not making income tax contributions to the Spanish state - and it does this for its own administrative convenience. This defrauds the state, dilutes the availability of healthcare services for Residents and isn't fair on those of us who live full-time in Spain and pay our income taxes here.

So whoever said that people who don't live in Rojales should "but out" (sic) needs to understand macro economics - if Rojales and other Town Halls behaving like this continue to drain funds from Central Government for people who don't pay income tax in Spain, not only are they acting illegally, they are diverting funds from honest tax-payers. I hope that Rojales and similar Town Halls are pulled into line and fined heavily for their actions.

In the meantime, to those posters who thinks it's OK to do this, how do you feel about "Johnny Foreigner sponging off UK benefits"? Well, you're doing the same thing in Spain.
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Re: PADRON AMAZED

Postby marcliff » Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:00 pm

Sorry but you are totally wrong about the temporary SIP cards being issued as "This defrauds the state, dilutes the availability of healthcare services for Residents and isn't fair on those of us who live full-time in Spain and pay our income taxes here."
It does no such thing.
You are entitled to use a EHIC for immediate and necessary treatment whilst in Spain. This is not just for emergencies but includes if you get ill, need INR testing, have an asthma attack etc etc. The medical centre will take the details of your EHIC and charge the paying country (for most of us, UK) each time you use it. So far, so good.
All issuing a temporary SIP card does is takes away the need to show the EHIC and complete the forms every time you go. However, the treatment you receive will be logged against your EHIC registration and will also be charged each time you use it. Same thing, just cuts out the admin work a little by filling in the same form every time.
It only covers the consultation part as you have to pay for the full amount of medication issued and the consultation part is paid for by the UK on the basis of NI contributions.
So what part of sponging off benefits are people doing in Spain if Spain is getting paid for providing the treatment through the EHIC/temporary SIP system?

Oh, and I'm a full time resident, paying taxes in both UK and Spain and have healthcare paid for by the UK.

Algorfa also has a lot of non-residents (though not as many as Rojales). Wouldn't it benefit your community if the local town hall was given an allowance for those who own property but make no contributions from the regional government?

Oh, and just edited to add.
Rojales town hall does not issue temporary SIP cards. The lady that works there works for the Torrevieja Hospital trust and those in the medical centre also work for them and not the town hall.
It seems you're blaming the town hall for something that they don't do.
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Re: PADRON AMAZED

Postby Jan » Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:04 pm

This has been a very interesting and helpful topic - However we have had a report saying that it has the potential to attract more controversial comments and that it may be best to close it now, before it does.

Thank you to all those who have contributed.

We will lock the topic now, as requested.
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