ROBBERIES DONA PEPA II

Dear All

We have a Lola Corner Townhouse on Residential Alegria Dona Pepa II. On Wednesday 10th July we were sitting in our front garden about 6.00 pm. I popped in to go and put some more washing on the line in the back when I noticed my Samsung Galaxy missing off the lounge table. I asked husband if he had seen it along with mobile phone and he said no. Anyway that is where this nightmare started for us. We started to look around and everything of value has been stolen. He had gone into downstairs bedroom and as we going back to UK next day Passports/Wallets/Purse/were on the bed but they were no longer there. My husband went upstairs and off his bedside table his Wedding Ring and his expensive 60th Birthday present watch had gone as well. They/he had taken Passports/Jewellery/Camera/Driving Licences/Samsung Galaxy/Bus Passes and various other items and dare I say a little cotton nightie!!

We then called the Local Policia who came out within 10 mins they did a quick check and showed us where they had jumped over our back wall, which is over 6ft I might add and then the footprints on the white wall of where they had got back out again as everywhere was locked apart from the back grille and back door was closed but not locked...we normally do but we were sat in the front and with me running back and to with washing didnt think it was necessary, but I do now. Well after the Police had been the Guardia Civil arrived...most helpful and told us to go to the Town Hall in the morning Thursday and make a report. This we did at 8 am, as you can imagine we didnt sleep a wink, but a very nice man the Interpreter was there and said the Police Officer normally arrives about 8.45 am. He did and we went into his Office along with the Interpreter to give a statement of what happened and possessions stolen. I had cancelled everything before this but was told by my 3G mobile phone co. that my phone had been used to make several calls to Algeria and our bank accounts Sabadell and my Lloydstsb had both been cleared out. We have arrived home and they have also made several cash transactions on our Mastercard. We were in the office for well over 2 hrs and then we had to go back to the bank and find out exact transactions along with time and where these were made and it was Crevillente a huge Moroccan area we believe. We should have been flying back to Liverpool on the 11th next day and the Interpreter kindly phoned Easyjet and was told that the Denuncia (Police report) would suffice for us to get back on the plane to our Homeland UK. So on Thurs we went along to Alicante to catch the plane home at 11.35 pm. Our friend and neighbour insisting coming along with us..we did have a hire car though. She came into Departures with us and we went to the Easyjet desk. We were told by a Easyjet Spanish member of staff that no way could be travel and nobody would give that information and that the Interpreter/Police officer were lying and would not have called, even though we were both sat opposite him and he had a nightmare on the computer trying to find an appropriate number to call. Well as you can imagine we were traumatised and left the Airport.

Well Friday was another day and at 7.30 am we set off for Alicante English Consulate. Our friend and neighbour took us and we parked on the Underground Car Park by the Marina. We got to the office and went in and were told we needed photographs so had to go along to try and find a booth, but no such thing but found a Photographers and he did 6 piccies each for us at a total cost of 9 euros that was wasnt too bad. We went back to the Consulate and had to fill in all the necessary forms and then was told it would take over an hour to process so we went to have a coffee and went back and was handed the 2 X 24 hr Emergency Passports at a cost of 116 euros each!!! ugh. Before they would hand them over we had to book 2 new flights at £214. These were taken off us at Liverpool.

We went back to Dona Pepa to await the time to leave for the Airport, we booked on the same flight as Thurs 11.35 pm Alicante to Liverpool. Tried to relax but this was impossible. We had got friendly with several people who were renting and they were Angels giving us money and helping in any way they could. We really dont know what we would have done without them. We did go to our Bank and managed to get a bit of money to repay them..there are some lovely people about in this world!!! They invited us up for something to eat and as we were there we found out within minutes that a small thin man had tried the handle of the door on the apartment the opposite end of the walkway luckily the lady was inside and saw this happen and went to the door and asked him what he wanted and he said he was looking for a blonde Spanish man she said was scruffy wearing a T shirt inside out. Our friends son in law and the person whose door he had tried followed him and he went over the back wall into the building site where they are building new apartments behind Alegria. Could have been our Robber thought he had been lucky on Wednesday and thought he would try again.

So Friday evening we got on our flight back to Liverpool. Yesterday Saturday we tried to make as many phone calls as we could and that is where this nightmare has really started. Our pins are our Birthdays I realise now that is wrong..so anybody using them please change immediately...we phoned Lloydstsb and they put us on to after lots of discussion to their Fraud Team. Well my husband is 69 and he spoke to him like he was a thief and accused him of giving him our Pin Nos and said he has never heard of them getting the Pin that way even though our DOBs were on our Passport and Driving Licences. He said no way will be get our money back which is to the tune of 1,000 (that doesnt include what has been stolen from Banco Sabadell) as no fraud has been committed as we really gave them our Numbers. A friend phoned yesterday and she said she uses her birthday as well so I said get it changed immediately. They wouldnt have had the Pins but our the DOBs are on the Passports and Driving Licences.

I did put something on my Facebook about this and had lots of helpful replies. I did grab the phone off my husband, who is a very quiet man, as I thought omg he is going to have a heart attack at these accusations. I asked the Fraud Man to send me in writing where it says we cannot use memorable numbers i.e. birthdays etc., and he said he couldnt. I have now been advised to send a letter of complaint to Lloydstsb and if no reply within a week to get the Ombudsman involved.

I know this is long winded but I would hate anybody else to go through what we have gone through. I havent slept since Wednesday night although it is now 1.19 am here and I did manage a couple of hours early in the evening. My daughter phoned me and told me not to do anything this weekend and try to relax in the sunshine and start the process of claim forms etc.,etc.,etc., on Monday and that is what I am going to do now so tomorrow perhaps I will empty the cases which are still sat in the hall and possibly I might get showered and dressed and face the world. Which is what we havent done today as yet as we were on the phone most of the day.

Please be vigilant as the Robbers are about and always lock grilles doors etc., even if you are in the House as when the Guardia came to the house they asked did we see what weapons they were carrying and thank god we didnt as we didnt see them. But it could have been far worse and we could have come face to face quite easily with him/them and who knows what would have happened us trying to save our hard earned possessions!!!

So night night all I am now going to get some sleep if I manage to clear my head...I realise you Men are a different breed to us as my hubby is behind me in bed snoring.

Liz and Allan
Alegria
Dona Pepa II

Awful story, A similar thing happened to me when I first moved to Spain so I know how you feel. I still use my Birthday for all my PIN numbers but will definitely change it now.

Thank you for sharing and good luck.

For what it´s worth the bank are wrong and do not have a leg to stand on. I would complain bitterly and as you say involve the ombudsman.

Tim.

So very sorry to hear this Liz and Allan.

It does seem that these things happen more often when builders are around and, now the property building has started again, your sad and traumatic experience is a message for us all to be even more vigilant with our security.

I hope you get your banks' to refund your money - It's supposed to be only £300 maximum per 24hrs from all ATM machines so not sure how they could have stolen more before you reported them stolen (to the bank).

Also your travel insurance may pay for your replacement passport costs. I just checked and ours does, without any excess, so it's worth checking that too if you have it.

Good luck with everything.

Jan.

So sorry to hear of your sad experiences. I hope you get over it soon and go on with your lives. And, yes, some good points made. We often sit out the front and leave the back door unlocked but will definitely be locking the doors in future. I was also under the impression the airlines allowed you to travel one way with a crime report but obviously that is wrong as well. And a temporary passport from the British consulate costs more than renewing a full passport in UK? What a marvellous system!
Regarding the withdrawal from banks, here in Spain you can draw €500 twice a day so €1000 per day in two transactions. I would definitely fill out a denuncia (or hoja de reclamaciones) for the guy at the bank.
At least the police seemed to be up to the mark on this but it doesn't really show much of good service from the banks, the airlines or the consulate.

Sorry to hear of this .... I have copied your description of the event to the Rojales Neighbourhood Watch.

It is a sad reminder to us all to be watchful at all times.
I am fortunate in having a large dog who is an excellent alarm/deterrent, but still try always to take care with locking-up.

Dear All

Thank you all for your caring responses. I have copy and pasted several newspaper Articles on Chip and Pin Thefts from Bank and yes you are right they do not have a leg to stand on it does say that 23% of people use their Birthdays as their Pin Nos. Tomorrow when I feel I can face it I will be sending a letter to Lloydstsb and also Banco Sabadell refusing to accept their FOBBING OFF OF US..which funnily enough it says in both articles that is what they will do...so along with that will be copies of the articles in the Press and then after 7 days if we havent heart anything that is when we are able to get the Ombudsman involved. I will try and copy and paste the said articles makes for interesting reading but hopefully all you lovely people who have Holiday Homes in Spain or who live there will be able to read them, but never be in the unfortunate position to have to quote them to anybody.

It is beautiful here in Spain so unpacked the case and looked for a cozzie and a sarong and already off into the garden and Monday is the day where I get on that Mission to claim all our stolen money and items back.

Sorry forgot to mention the man at the Banco Sabadell next to La Laguna Hotel did take a copy of the Denuncia Police Crime Report for his perusal or whatever he does with it probably in the circular filing basket at the side of his desk...well I have news for him!!!

Cheers for now.

Liz and Allan
Alegria
Dona Pepa II

I HAVE COPIED AND PASTED ONE OF THE NEWSPAPER ARTICLES.

If a thief steals your credit card, will your bank refund you?
By Emma Lunn
Published: 13 June 2012


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If your bank card gets stolen or cloned or your online financial account hacked into, you might reasonably expect any losses to be covered by your bank.
However, if the bank thinks you've been careless with your card, you might be out of luck - or at least required to argue your innocence.
Refund refusals
The Financial Services Authority (FSA) has set out clear rules stating that banks can refuse to refund customers only in certain circumstances -- namely, if it can prove the customer authorised the transaction. But its rules also state that use of a customer's password, card or PIN conclusively isn't enough to prove authorisation. In other words, a bank can't simply blame you if your PIN or password is used by a thief. stolen-credit-card
However, there have been a raft of recent examples in the press in which a bank has done just that; the customers claims he has taken all the necessary precautions, but has still been victimized -- and the banks initially refuse a refund.
An April 2012 episode of BBC Watchdog highlighted several cases. The first was a Barclays customer who found his bank cards had been used by thieves to buy car tax discs from the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) website for vehicles he didn't own.
Barclays, according to the BBC report, insisted he was liable because he had used the same card with the DVLA himself -- to buy a tax disc for his own car. However, Barclays later refunded the money.
The program also highlighted the plight of a NatWest customer who had £18,000 stolen when a fraudster contacted the bank, changed the address on the account and asked for a new card and PIN to be sent. Money was then removed from the account electronically as well as via purchases and cash withdrawals.
Even though the customer was out of the country at the time of the purchases and cash withdrawals took place, NatWest refused a refund, saying that because his card and PIN were used, the customer was liable. The bank later refunded the customer in full.
The banks' side of the story
All banks have similar terms and conditions that require customers to keep their account details private. This includes not sharing your PIN with anyone else or even writing it down. The purpose of these rules is to prevent a consumer from, for example, sharing his PIN with a friend for a one-time purchase and then crying "fraud" to the bank when that friend then drains the account. It also prevents consumers from writing down their PINs and keeping them in their wallets -- where they can easily be stolen along with their cards.
If a fraudster gets a hold of a card and that card's PIN, that's a signal to the bank that the customer was irresponsible -- and in violation of the cardholder contract. And that's why banks may turn down customers' requests for refunds even if they deny the card has ever left their person.
"Every claim is looked at on a case-by-case basis, but if we have clear evidence that security measures haven't been followed then we would most likely not refund," explains Jonathan Akerman, senior media relations manager at Santander. "However, if we have clear evidence that a customer has followed the required security measures, but money has been taken from an account or purchases made on a card by someone who isn't the named card holder then we would most likely refund."
It's a similar story at Lloyds Banking Group.
"Our customers can be confident that they will be fully reimbursed as long as they have taken reasonable measures to keep their card and security details safe and have not allowed anyone else to have access to their account details or PIN," says Lloyds spokeswoman Gillian Slater.
Your responsibilities
If your money's been stolen, the last thing you need is a fight with your bank. Although it may give you the benefit of the doubt eventually, if your PIN was used, it might launch an investigation to make sure you didn't share it.
So keep your PIN a secret - and make it hard to guess, too. Fraudsters have a pretty good chance of guessing a PIN after stealing a bank card, especially if it's in a wallet or bag containing other personal information. Researchers at Cambridge University found that 23% of people use a significant date as their PIN with a third of these using their own birthday. Other guessable PINs include sequential numbers such as "1234" and numbers in a pattern on a bank keypad such as "1379" (the four corners).
See related: How to protect yourself from charity fraud; UK targeted by bank-robbing malware


Liz and Allan

marcliff wrote:Regarding the withdrawal from banks, here in Spain you can draw €500 twice a day so €1000 per day in two transactions.

Thanks for this info. We always thought it must be the same as the UK (300). I must admit that it seems a bit excessive to allow 1000 euros a day!! I know it could be helpful at certain times but the majority of people would not need access to that amount each day and considering the amount of card fraud you would think they would keep the amount lower, especially if they are going to refuse to refund as in Liz & Alan's case (maybe you could use this to state your case Liz, especially with the Lloyds UK bank - They wouldn't allow £1000 a day!)

As well as a reminder not to use 'easily guessable' pin numbers, this is also a good reminder to us all to keep photo copies in a safe place of all passports. Also to keep a safe note of the details of phone numbers from the back of all bank cards and the actual card numbers themselves, for the unfortunate event of having to phone the bank when they are lost or stolen.

Jan.

THIS IS ANOTHER ARTICLE I FOUND..PLEASE READ AND INWARDLY DIGEST...HOPEFULLY NONE OF YOU WILL EVER NEED TO QUOTE BUT WORTH A READ ANYWAY IN CASE IT HAPPENS TO A FRIEND OR NEIGHBOUR!!!!

Victim of chip-and-pin fraud? It's all YOUR fault, insist the banks as they refuse payouts
By RUTH LYTHE
PUBLISHED: 00:57, 10 October 2012 | UPDATED: 09:39, 10 October 2012
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Thousands of innocent victims of card fraud are routinely being deprived of payouts worth thousands of pounds by their banks - who wrongly brand them crooks instead.
A Money Mail investigation has found banks are automatically denying victims refunds simply because the payment has shown up as a chip-and-pin transaction on their statement.
Banks claim it’s impossible for a thief to make a chip-and-pin payment without a correct personal identification number (pin) - the four-digit security code personal to each cardholder. They insist the victim has either been complicit in the crime or negligent and left their pin in their purse or wallet.
Chip and pin fraud: The Ombudsman says it has seen a 30 per cent jump in the number of complaints about refusal to pay out on card fraud
Chip and pin fraud: The Ombudsman says it has seen a 30 per cent jump in the number of complaints about refusal to pay out on card fraud
But this defence - routinely used to fob off customers - contravenes a key piece of banking regulation. The Financial Services And Markets rules, Payment Services Regulations (2009) clearly highlight that - by itself - the use of a card and the relevant correct pin is not evidence of complicit fraud or gross negligence.
Instead, banks must thoroughly investigate each case of alleged chip-and-pin fraud to clear the customer of guilt. They must be prepared to hand over evidence of alleged gross negligence or fraud to the customer. But our investigation found this is rarely the case.

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SAM DUNN: Pinning the blame on customers for fraud
'Barclays wrongly blamed me when £1,150 was stolen from my account'
Money Mail has discovered a worrying trend of banks not bothering to start a formal investigation. Instead, they fob off customers by telling them that because the fraud involved chip and pin, they must be at fault - leaving them empty handed.
Now the Financial Ombudsman Service, concerned at what it fears is becoming an increasingly prevalent practice, has spoken out.
Spokesman Martyn James says: ‘We are seeing far too many cases where a thorough investigation has not taken place because the pin has been used with the card.
‘This is wrong. It shouldn’t be happening and it’s disappointing - and drags out the process for the customer unnecessarily.’
HOW CROOKS STEAL YOUR PIN
Most commonly, criminals get a pin by ‘shoulder-surfing’ their victim. They look over their shoulder as they tap in the number and then steal the card.
Criminals can also clone your card by attaching a device called a skimmer on a cash machine, and a pinhole camera which films you tapping in your pin. There is a thriving market for these devices on the internet, where they sell for as little as £300.
Other rogues can target you by stealing your card and then using a modified version to trick the shop card reader into thinking you’ve entered the right pin - when really they’ve typed in any old number.
The Ombudsman says it has seen a 30 per cent jump in the number of complaints about refusal to pay out on card fraud, of which the vast majority are chip-and-pin cases. Complaints are up to 70 a week - some 3,400 over the past 12 months.
Card fraud is estimated to cost British banks £341million a year, and the majority is paid back to victims. But in thousands of cases, the bank is convinced the card holder is a guilty party - either of fraud or gross negligence. In some cases seen by Money Mail, the sums lost have been as high as £2,400.
Yet the rules are clear: the burden of proof lies with the bank and it’s up to them to show that you authorised a payment or failed to protect your debit card details or pin.
With credit cards, the situation is slightly different. If someone uses the card and pin without your knowledge, the most you will ever have to pay is £50. Experts say the complaints sent to the Ombudsman are simply the tip of the iceberg.
They argue that thousands more customers are being turned down automatically over the phone by their bank - and that they do not even know they can argue their case with the Ombudsman. A Which? spokesman says: ‘When it comes to fraud, the law is very clearly on the consumer’s side.
‘Our advice is to be persistent with your bank and take your case to the Financial Ombudsman if your refund is refused.’
Richard Emery, of card fraud investigation company 4Keys International, says: ‘We’re very concerned fraudsters have found a way of getting round pins that has not yet been identified.
‘There is no independent investigation going into this topic.’
Another reader, Chris Gee, 45, from Maghull, Merseyside, is battling with NatWest after she found a mysterious £116 transaction on her statement. NatWest refused to refund the payment because it was by chip and pin.
Mrs Gee says her statement shows the disputed transaction taking place in a bar in Dublin, She is adamant she was on a shopping trip in Liverpool - 135 miles away over the Irish Sea. She says her card even shows card transactions at a Liverpool railway station just hours before the money disappeared.
She says: ‘There is no way I could have got to Dublin in that time. I realise £116 is not a huge amount of money but it’s the principle. I feel I am being accused of stealing.’
A NatWest spokesman says the bank is investigating Mrs Gee’s case. Experts have long argued there are huge flaws with chip and pin and believe the banks and card companies are aware of them.
In 2010, security expert Ross Anderson at the University of Cambridge revealed it was possible to use a stolen debit card in a chip-and-pin terminal without knowing the number. He published documents showing a fraudster just needs a small circuit board to confuse the terminal into thinking the pin is any number.
This year the team found further flaws, which suggest approximately 50 per cent of cash machines and shop terminals are open to fraud. He sent the findings directly to the banks.
Money Mail has been shown emails sent by Mr Anderson’s team to the major card schemes, Visa and MasterCard, months ago revealing the flaws in the systems. They also claim technical workers for some of the banks have told them they have been aware of the flaws for a number of years.
Michael Bond, one of the scientists who worked on the study, says: ‘The technical staff at some of the banks seem to be aware there can be problems with chip and pin. However, it looks as though they are not passing this information on to the staff who deal with fraud.’
Experts also argue unscrupulous shop owners may register payments as chip and pin when in fact the card has been swiped and signed for because chip-and-pin transactions are cheaper to process.
'My 2-year fight for £540'
In some cases, banks refuse to pay up even after years of fighting. Paul Saunders, 40 - pictured with his wife Kerri, 42 - has been fighting since 2010 when he found £540 had been taken from his account in three mysterious transactions.
Fighting: Paul Saunders with his wife Kerri has been trying to get Santander to refund him £540 since 2010
Fighting: Paul Saunders with his wife Kerri has been trying to get Santander to refund him £540 since 2010
Mr Saunders, who is a freight transport planner from Caerphilly in South Wales, contacted Santander immediately, but was refused a refund.
‘They wouldn’t let me raise a claim, stating as it was an ATM transaction using chip and pin it would be refused out of hand,’ he says.
Santander still says it will not pay back the cash. A spokesman says the person making withdrawals must have known the pin. Mr Saunders is adamant he did not give his pin to anyone.

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Liz and Allan

Jan.... just read your response...the money was over 3 cards...my Debit Card Lloydstsb..hubby's Credit Card and 600 euros from Banco Sabadell.

Liz and Allan